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TOPIC: Onesliceshort Analyse:Augenzeugen und der Nordpfad

Onesliceshort Analyse:Augenzeugen und der Nordpfad 28 Oct 2011 00:14 #2221

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Zur Wichtigkeit der Flugbahn direkt über dem Navy -Annex- Gebäude und nördlich der CITGO- Tankstelle (abgekürzt NOC) siehe hier:

Der User oneslicehort vom CIT- Forum ist die Liste der Augenzeugen für einen Flugzeuganschlag die Debunker häufig verwenden durchgegangen und daraufhin unterucht, ob sie der NOC- Flugbahn grundätzlich widersprechen:

onesliceshort hat einen Teil der Zeugenaussagen schon hier analysiert:

Hier kommen nun die bis jetzt unveröffentlichten Analysen der restlichen Zeugenaussagen

The whole purpose of my thread was and is to find if anybody supports the official path. If the argument is boiled down to "impact or flyover", even if a witness is adamant/believes that they witnessed an "impact", which include all of the confirmed NOC witnesses (physically seeing or being in a position to see the plane enter the building is a separate issue), the directional damage through lightpoles 1 and 2, through the generator trailer and emerging at C-Ring (exit hole) must correlate.

Say, for example, that a gun is fired at a person. The bullet passes through different obstacles (without deviating the course of the bullet) and strikes the person in the left of the forehead and exits the rear right of the head. All of the physical evidence which is totally controlled by police and withheld from the public (including video footage) and points to the gun being fired from the angle that caused all of the damage. All witnesses in the surrounding area describe the gun being fired from a different angle (almost like the "grassy knoll"). How can that be?

CIT's conclusion is that if the plane flew NOC then it couldn't have impacted. It is based on ALL of the physical damage and the alleged trajectory that enabled that damage. Boeing 757s aren't kites that can swoop and change direction at the last fraction of a second. I agree. So does physics and aerodynamics.

How can an alleged witness like Anderson, looking through a window kilometers away, compare to an entire body of witnesses corroborating eachother in the stretch of land where the plane flew? From different angles?

This is the reason that detractors have had to brazenly lie about the flightpath and instead point to contradictory, ambiguous online accounts or have the likes of Jeff Hill phone witnesses and lead them, avoid the flightpath question, and instead concentrate on the unrealistic scenario where a person could physically watch, without flinching or ducking a massive explosion and fireball.

Hill's first few calls lead to more NOC witnesses being unearthed. That's why he changed tact.

Bart Anderson, Steve
"A few moments later, as I was looking down at my desk, the plane caught my eye. It didn't register at first. I thought to myself that I couldn't believe the pilot was flying so low. Then it dawned on me what was about to happen. I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball. Then black smoke. Then white smoke."

Anderson could see the the wing "drug....along the ground from here...?,0.109692&t=k&z=13

Interestingly, he claims that he heard "jet engines" pass his building moments before. This contradicts the official "loop" of "Flight 77" as per the FDR and RADES data which does not go over Washington DC skies.

The following zoomed in image is taken from a building just behind the two USAToday buildings in Roslyn where Anderson allegedly was:

Remember that this is a photograph. The human eye and mind are open to suggestion and is not as focused. Also remember that the sun was shining in the eyes of people who would have been watching from the west and north:
Last Edit: 05 Nov 2011 02:44 by stefanlebkon.
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Aw: Onesliceshort Analyse:Augenzeugen und der Nordpfad 28 Oct 2011 00:58 #2222

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Bart Anlauf, Deb & Jeff

Watching from floor 14 window of her hotel room in the Sheraton Hotel
"Suddenly I saw this plane right outside my window. You felt like you could touch it; it was that close. It was just incredible. Then it shot straight across from where we are..¨
This shot is from the roof of the Sheraton.


Analauf is a Navy Annex witness. What needs to be confirmed is which point or at what angle the plane traversed this building.
All ANC witnesses (among many more) confirm that the plane flew over this point.

Interestingly, the following statement points to her not actually describing the plane hit the building, but seeing the fireball:
"It was just this huge fireball that crashed into the wall (of the Pentagon)."
Jeff Analauf allegedly felt the blast from within the Sheraton Hotel.
"Jeff didn't feel the impact of the plane crash as directly as his wife. He was attending an environmental meeting on the second floor of the hotel when the plane struck the Pentagon. About five seconds before the crash, Jeff said he heard the sound of "tin being dropped," likely as construction workers building an addition to the hotel saw the plane and dropped their building materials. "Then, about 5 seconds later, the whole hotel shook," Jeff recalled. "I could feel it moving. We said 'Oh, my gosh, what's going on?' "

SGYDK Arlington Co. Radio trans
No quote, anonymous.

Response Baxter, John, Col.
Listed as "jet fuel".

He was involved in the "impact scenario of a 757" scenario nmonths earlier:

More here:

I can't actually find where he is directly quoted as mentioning fuel but there were also reports of people smelling cordite. The fireball was oviously caused by an accelerant.
Either way, he is not a witness to the flight of the aircraft.

-They Saw Bease, Maurice
"he stood outside his office near the Pentagon on Sept. 11. Turning around expecting to see a fighter jet fly over, he saw only a SPLIT-SECOND GLIMPSE of a white commercial airliner streaking low toward the building, AND HIM! He did not even have time to duck before it plowed into the side of the Pentagon around the corner and about 200 yards from where he stood. Immediately, a ball of flame shot up the side of the building, followed by smoke, lots of it."

This is a second hand account (HIM!) and Maurice Bease is directly quoted nowhere.
He was allegedly "around the corner" and caught a "glimpse" of the aircraft. According to the media. The media have repeatedly been caught lying or exaggerating witness accounts. Cissell, Penny Elgas, Omar Campo, to name but a few.

Bart Biggert Judy
"Members of Congress have been shuttled to the site to inspect the damage. Rep. Judy Biggert (R-Ill.) made the trip on Thursday. She saw remnants of the airplane. 'There was a seat from a plane, there was part of the tail and then there was a part of green metal, I could not tell what it was, a part of the outside of the plane,' she said. 'It smelled like it was still burning.'

She did not see the flight of the aircraft. She wasn't there.

Bart Birdwell Brian
"Birdwell walked out to the men's room in corridor 4, a move that saved his life. He had just taken three or four steps out of the bathroom when the building was rocked. "Bomb!" the Gulf War vet immediately thought as he was knocked down. When he stood up, he realized he was on fire. "Jesus, I'm coming to see you"

Not only is it a second hand account, but Birdwell was inside the building and did not see the flight of the aircraft.

Bart Bowman John
"John Bowman, a retired Marine lieutenant colonel and a contractor, was in his office in Corridor Two near the main entrance to the south parking lot. "Everything was calm,' Bowman said. "Most people knew it was a bomb. Everyone evacuated smartly. We have a good sprinkling of military people who have been shot at."

He was inside the building and did not see the flight of the aircraft. He actually thought it was a "bomb".

SGYDK Bradley, Pam

This was an anonymous e-mail (anonymous in that we don't even know if she exists) sent to BBC.

Even so her claim that she saw an "impact" is physically impossible from the scant details she allegedly posted:..
"I work in Washington DC area, and was on my way to work, in my car, sitting on a bridge, and saw the plane hit the Pentagon. I am in a complete state of shock."
She was either on 14th St Bridge or Arlington Memorial Bridge headed into DC, either way her back would be to the Pentagon. She probably saw a fireball rising and deduced the "plane hitting the pentagon" after she heard reports of a plane "hitting the Pentagon".

She was driving TOWARDS DC on one of two bridges on either side of the Pentagon on the opposite side of the "impact area"

Use the streetview feature and see what you can see from there. Remember drive towards Washington DC. Impossible. Maybe she saw the fireball AFTER the event but that´s it.

No way could she physically witness an "impact". If she exists.

Bart Braman Chris
"Staff Sgt. Chris Braman : The lawn was littered with twisted pieces of aluminum. He saw one chunk painted with the letter ``A,'' another with a ``C.'' It didn't occur to Braman what the letters signified until a man in the crowd stooped to pick up one of the smaller metal shards. He examined it for a moment, then announced: ``This was a jet.''

Not a witness to the flight of the aircraft. The "debris" has never been officially identified.

LOC Brennan, Donald

Donald Brennan was discussed in this thread:
He was in the cafeteria area on the other side of the building in the inner rings. He is not a witness to the flight of the aircraft.

Bart Brown, Ervin
"At the Pentagon, employees had heard about or seen footage of the World Trade Centre attack when they felt their own building shake. Ervin Brown, who works at the Pentagon, said he saw pieces of what appeared to be small aircraft on the ground, and the part of the building by the heliport had collapsed."

Second hand account of somebody who didn't witness the flight of the aircraft.

Response Bryceland, Frank
""We could not see the plane. The only thing that we saw was a piece of the front skin with the “C” from American Airlines by the little heliport control tower. There was a fire truck there that was burnt on one side, and a car, and a tree, all burnt. But, still, you could not see the plane."

Is not a witness to the flightpath of the plane. Even shows incredulity that a plane "crashed" there.

SGYDK Candelario, Joseph
"USA a first year student in the Family Nurse Practitioner Program watched from the River by Fort McNair.
I noticed a large aircraft flying low towards the White House. This aircraft then made a sharp turn and flew towards the Pentagon and seconds later crashed into it."

Actually contradicts the official "loop" which doesn't cross the Potomac River discussed in the following thread:

He was allegedly in Fort McNair:

on the other side of the Potomac River. Take a look at the streetview.

He doesn't contradict the NOC witnesses but he certainly contradicts the official flight path

They Saw Clodfelter, George

His tory is of rescue work. He makes no mention of the aircraft anywhere. Not a witness to the flight of the aircraft.

Response Close, Bernadette
"But we did go right up by the helipad almost. You could see pieces of the airplane sitting there, and it looked like some cushions or some pieces. –Lieutenant Colonel Bernadette Close"

Not a witness to the flight of the aircraft.

They Saw Cox, Richard (Arlington po)
"Three blocks further along, at the intersection of Columbia Pike with South Wayne Street, Police Motorcycle Officer Richard Cox observed the airliner flying so close to the ground that the polished underside of its fuselage reflected the images of the buildings it passed on its flight; then he heard an explosion."

He is alleged to have seen the aircraft well before the Navy Annex with no view of the Pentagon basin. He doesn't contradict the NOC flightpath.

Bart Creed, Dan
¨He and two colleagues from Oracle software were stopped in a car near the Naval Annex, next to the Pentagon, when they saw the plane dive down and level off. "It was no more than 30 feet off the ground, and it was screaming. It was just screaming. It was nothing more than a guided missile at that point," Creed said. "I can still see the plane. I can still see it right now. It's just the most frightening thing in the world, going full speed, going full throttle, its wheels up," Creed recalls.

He could be describing either flightpath. Does not contradict NoC

Bart Damoose

Damoose said the worst part was leaving the Pentagon and walking along Fort Meyer Drive, a bike trail, "you could see pieces of the plane."

Not a witness to the flightpath of the plane.

Bart Day, Wayne T.
"For one employee with Wedge One's mechanical subcontractor John J. Kirlin Inc., Rockville MD, "lucky" is an understatement. "We had one guy who was standing, looking out the window and saw the plane when it was coming in. He was in front of one of the blast-resistant windows," says Kirlin President Wayne T. Day, who believes the window structure saved the man's life."

Was he even there??
Not a witness to the flight of the aircraft.

Bart Defina
""The only way you could tell that an aircraft was inside was that we saw pieces of the nose gear. The devastation was horrific. It was obvious that some of the victims we found had no time to react. The distance the firefighters had to travel down corridors to reach the fires was a problem. With only a good 25 minutes of air in their SCBA bottles, to save air they left off their face pieces as they walked and took in a lot of smoke," Captain Defina said. Captain Defina was the shift commander [of an aircraft rescue firefighters crew.]"

Defina was at the Reagan National Airport tackling a car on fire (hmmm) when the explosion occured. Not a witness to the flight of the aircraft.
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Aw: Onesliceshort Analyse:Augenzeugen und der Nordpfad 28 Oct 2011 23:17 #2223

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SGYDK Donley, Daryl
First some background..
"I could see the windows. I saw the entire plane and then saw it fly right into the Pentagon."

He claims not to have seen the approach. That he heard the aircraft. That he saw it as it passed. His story is told by the man himself here (you need "RealPlayer" to view it - about 5 minutes in):
"Hi, umm, before I show the images I’ll just briefly say, umm, as Carol has just mentioned, that I was in front of the Pentagon, stopped in the worse commuter traffic I’d ever experienced, before or since, and then heard a very loud plane, it got progressively louder, and it got so loud I ducked in my…(laughter)…is anyone out there? (laughs)... I, I ducked in my car it got so loud, and I turned to my right and the plane was next to me, umm, at an angle, at just above ground level, and I later realized it had knocked down lampposts next to me, and saw it fly into the Pentagon."

The official speed of the aircraft (540-580 mph) and as claimed by the ASCE Report, would have been in his view as he described it for 0.5 seconds!

He claims that he had also ducked in his car. That he didn't see the poles being "struck". More importantly, he claims to have been pacing back and forth over the motorway and didn't see Lloyd england with the alleged 30ft pole sticking out of his car!

The pole he was referring to, caught on camera by him is lightpole 5 (the one on the Pentagon lawn):

Donley's image:

He would have actually been at the point where Robert Turcios specifically describes as the entrance point on to Route 27:

Where the majority of recorded witnesses who drew a flightpath place the aircraft:

That's why it's so important for the witness to see the aircraft in relation to the Annex and the Citgo Gas Station. The entry point on to Route 27 and the path through lightpoles 1 and 2 is a matter of 100 metres. The crux is the path of the aircraft.

Donley seems to be trying to fit what he saw with the official version. But he contradicts the speed (or is lying), he is on record as having ducked in his car, not to have seen lightpoles being "struck" (or Lloyd's cab), he didn't see the approach, he would have seen a blur, THEN there was the little matter of a massive explosion felt up to 3km away and a 200ft diameter fireball. Oh, and the 30+ photographs given to Gannet that nobody has seen in public.

He doesn't contradict NOC.

Bart Dougherty, Jill
"Jill Dougherty : It took your breath away, data analyst Jill Dougherty said of the vibration. It went right through you. I didn't hear anything. I just felt it."
Not a witness.

FOX Dyson, John
"FOX, 17:29. John Dyson. “I was working in an area …between the two rings where a large ten foot diameter hole burst through, and there was the nose gear on the deck.”[at the C-ring]

Nose gear at the "exit hole". Okay.
Not a witness to the flightpath. He was inside the Pentagon (allegedly).

Bart Eberle, Bobby

Bobby Eberle was heavily implicated in Gannongate (He was "Jeff Gannon's" pimp and GOPUSA boss). Had even been involved in the private visits to the white house.
It was a great Monday evening, September 10, 2001. All of these feelings from the night before changed dramatically the following morning as I watched Flight 77 fly only a couple hundred feet over my head..
I looked over my left shoulder and saw the aircraft only a couple hundred feet over head.
The route from where I'm staying to my conference hotel runs right by the Pentagon. As we slowly crept along in traffic at about 9:30 am, we rounded a bend and had the Pentagon in our sites -- right in front of us.... This aircraft was angled the aircraft passed from behind my left shoulder to in front of me.

He makes no mention of the lightpoles. He makes no mention of Lloyd's cab even though he would allegedly have had to drive past it! How could his friend's view have been blocked but not his?
He was allegedly on one of two roads that bend leading towards the Pentagon (with the Pentagon coming into sight):

He claims that he looked over his left shoulder to see the aircraft "a couple of hundred feet overhead".

He could be describing either path but look at the official FDR/Directional damage path:

At the point where the road emerges from underneath the underpass, the aircraft was allegedly 80ft AGL, 0.7 seconds away from Route 27. He isn't describing that at all (if he was even there given his background). He's describing an aircraft "a couple of hundred feet" agl. The Navy Annex.

He would have had to have been very lucky to have caught the official approach. he would also have to be double jointed to turn round to catch it. No way.

Fox Elhallan, Aziz

Exposed as a possible liar here:

The photo in which he was captured and exposed:

was removed by the DOD and was downloaded purely by luck.
He doesn't mention the plane's approach nor where his car allegedly was when the plane allegedly "flew over".
He isn't to be seen in any of the Ingersol images that were taken of the area minutes after the explosion around the lightpole area.
Why was he allowed to keep physical evidence?
Again he doesn't mention the lightpoles or Lloyd's cab.
Penny Elgas described the plane as flying ahead of her and her testimony places her ahead of the official path etry point on to Route 27:

He doesn't contradict NOC in the slightest.

Bart Faram, Mark
"When the explosion happened I ran down the hill to the site and arrived there approximately 10 minutes after the explosion."

Did not see the flightpath of the aircraft.

Bart Flyler, Kim
"Kim Flyler was trying to sneak into a parking space near to the building when she saw the plane: "At that moment I heard a plane and then a loud cracking noise.... Right before the plane hit the building, you could see the silhouettes of people in the back two rows. You couldn't see if they were male or female, but you could tell there was a human being in there."

I call bullshit on the "silhouettes". She "heard" the plane and caught a glimpse "right before" the explosion.

Doesn't contradict NOC

Bart Ford, Ken
"Ken Ford : One eyewitness, State Department employee Ken Ford, said he watched from the 15th floor of the State Department Annex, just across the PotomacRiver from the Pentagon. We were watching the airport through binoculars, Ford said, referring to Reagan National Airport, a short distance away. The plane was a two-engine turbo prop that flew up the river from National. Then it turned back toward the Pentagon. We thought it had been waved off and then it hit the building. "

Another alleged witness (an employee of the state department) who contradicts the official path. The aircraft was nowhere near the Potomac river according to the official story.

He was in downtown Washington DC and could nt physically see the aircraft's path within the basin. Nor could he have seen the alleged "impact".

Bart Fortunato, Don
"Traffic was at a standstill, so I parked on the shoulder, not far from the scene and ran to the site. Next to me was a cab from D.C., its windshield smashed out by pieces of lampposts. There were pieces of the plane all over the highway, pieces of wing, I think. (...) "There were a lot of people with severe burns, severe contusions, severe lacerations, in shock and emotional distress"
Fortunato wasn't there at the time of the explosion. He was at the police station.

Not a witness
They Saw Foust, Barry (Arlington po)

Plane disappeared behind "treeline". Cold only see the smoke afterwards above said treeline. Could not physically see final approach.

Doesn't contradict NOC.

Bart Frost, Stephen S.
"Captain Stephen S. Frost, Medical Corps : We saw many blast injuries "

That's it. Did not witness plane or flightpath.

SGYDK/NBC Gerard, Steven

Describes a "20 passenger jet" that he saw out of the "corner of his eye".

However he is first reported as saying :
"Out of the corner of my eye, I saw this plane coming down. I was talking on my cell phone to my wife about how close I was to the airport and then I saw the fireball."
He saw the fireball as opposed to the plane "striking" the building. Assumption.

Doesn't describe flightpath. The "angle" reference is in regards to the "angle of attack". He said it looked like "it was landing" in response to this.

Doesn't contradict NOC and his description of a small plane shows how little detail he caught.

- Hahr, Matt

Same testimony as Day, Wayne T.. Second hand account about somebody inside the building.

Bart Harrington, Joe
"Harrington was working on the installation of new furniture in Wedge One, when he was called out to the parking lot to talk about security with his customer moments before the crash. "About two minutes later one of my guys pointed to an American Airlines airplane 20 feet high over Washington Blvd.," Harrington said. "It seemed like it made impact just before the wedge. It was like a Hollywood movie or something. "
Doesn't contradict NOC.

Bart Hemphill, Albert

New information regarding this guy's testimony. He had been labelled the "best SOC witness" until CIT phoned him:

He is an NOC witness (in denial due to some underhand move by Jeff Hill)

Bart Henson, Jerry
"Pinned in his chair and wrapped in a shroud of thick smoke and darkness, Jerry Henson had almost given up hope. He could feel all his limbs, but they wouldn't move. It was as if he were frozen at his desk by forces he couldn't battle."

Inside the Pengagon. Did not witness aircraft.

FOX Hudson, Ed
"I didn't actually see the impact..I saw the smoke"

Doesn't contradict NOC. Claims to have been passing Fort Myer towards the Navy Annex which is to the North.

Bart Hunt, Bob
"In office when the explosion at the Pentagon occurred."
Not a witness. Though his second hand accounts contradict the official path which doesn't go over Washington:
""I talked to a number of average people in route who said they saw the plane hovering over the Washington Mall Area at an altitude lower that the height of the Washington Monument" Hunt stated."

Ingledue, Jim (VBFD)
"Capt. Jim Ingledue, shift safety officer of the Virginia Beach Fire Dept, said Monday he found amidst the rubble at the Pentagon, two days after 9/11, the perfectly clean and unblemished California ID card of Suzanne Calley, 42, one of the alleged victims killed aboard Flight 77."

Is not a witness.

They Saw Johnson, Megan
"'Today is my worst day yet,' said Megan Johnson of Bristow, Va., yesterday. She was on Interstate 395
when the terrorist plane flew directly in front of her car into the Pentagon. "

Second hand account. Media embellishment to her alleged words - "Today is my worst day yet". Meaningless and unconfirmed.

They Saw Jones, Eric

"They Saw" write this:
""was driving through nearby Arlington, Va., when he saw the plane slam into the Pentagon's northwest outer wall."

Second hand account.

In the days after the event he is alleged to have said:
""I am a volunteer firefighter who happened to be driving near the Pentagon when the plane crashed into
it. I stopped the car and ran to the site."

He doesn't mention seeing the aircraft before the explosion. Nor the "impact".
"CROWLEY: A volunteer firefighter and grad student at George Washington university, Eric Jones was headed to class when he saw the smoke, pulled into the Pentagon parking lot and ran into the fiery building."

Does not contradict NOC flightpath.
Last Edit: 28 Oct 2011 23:58 by stefanlebkon.
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Aw: Onesliceshort Analyse:Augenzeugen und der Nordpfad 29 Oct 2011 17:39 #2224

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Bart Kean, Terrance
"Lives in a 14-story building ´nearby´
Terrance Kean, 35, who lives in a 14-story building nearby, heard the loud jet engines and glanced out
his window.
"I saw this very, very large passenger jet," said the architect, who had been packing for a move.
"It just plowed right into the side of the Pentagon. The nose penetrated into the portico. And then it
sort of disappeared, and there was fire and smoke everywhere. . . . It was very sort of surreal."

He has never repeated his story and cannot be found for an inerview. He claims to have witnessed an "impact" but doesn't describe a flightpath.

Needs to be confirmed.

SGYDK Keglovich, James
"She said her brother, James Keglovich, 38, a carpenter working near the Pentagon, was on break across the street from that structure when the airliner tore into the building. He and his friends witnessed the plane approaching.

He told her they began exclaiming, "Where's he going? What's he doing?" when suddenly they saw the plane clip a taxi cab on the nearby bridge. The crash was exceptionally loud, he said. It shook the building and knocked people down who were closer to the point of impact."

Totally fabricated media piece on a third hand account!

Why has this witness never been brought forward to back up Lloyd England´s story? NOBODY saw the cab being speared. Nobody apart from Lloyd.If this were confirmed detractors and the media would have been scrambling to bring him forward as back-up to Lloyd´s story.

This is his SISTER´s account of what he said reported by a media that has been found out many times twisting the words of people to sell newspapers? No dice. Weak.
He allegedly "told her" that he saw the plane´s approach.
He does NOT say he saw an "impact´ and until he is quoted directly on that these are just words printed in a newspaper. End of.

The REPORTER makes the claim that he saw the plane "hit"

SGYDK Kelly, Lesley
"On Sept. 11, I was standing in a break room of an office . . . in downtown D.C., when I looked out the window to see an airplane descend into the side of the Pentagon"

Another "window witness" miles away in DC. Opposite the alleged impact side. He couldn't physically see the Pentagon basin. He couldn't see the west side of the Pentagon. Maybe he saw the aircraft at height but until we know his exact POV we can't tell.

Does't contradict NOC

Bart Kirk, Mark Steven
"Rep. Mark Steven Kirk (R-Ill.), a Naval Reserve intelligence officer. ''Apparently, the fire killed everybody in there,'' said Kirk, shortly after he learned that two friends perished in the center. Kirk also went to the site. ''The first thing you smell is the burning. And then you can smell the aviation fuel. And then you can smell this sickly, rotten-meat smell,'' he said."

Wasn't there. Not a witness.

Kopf, Peter
Peter Kopf, director of information technology at USA TODAY, was stalled in traffic about 9:30 a.m. when the jet hit the Pentagon, creating a "huge fireball."
"People (on the highway) were freaking out," he said. "People were turning around and driving the opposite way getting out of their cars, talking on cell phones, crying."

This witness doesn't decribe the path or where he was on Route 27.

10 years after his story was printed he was phoned by Jeff Hill (who has had extremely good luck in contacting these people). He uses a leading technique to reinforce what he wants them to say:

He concentrated on the "conspiracy nuts are saying that..." and then knowinly avoiding the question as to where the witness was and where they saw the aircraft. That a claim to seeing an "impact" is enough. Why? Because he has singlehandedly pointed out at least more NOC witnesses in the pursuit of an "SOC witness"!

Kopf has since changed his ambiguous story into seeing the alleged "impact".

When he claims to have been stuck in traffic on Route 27, he has to be between the area of lightpole 1 and the "impact area" itself to have a clear view. In fact, he has to be between lightpole 1 and lightpole 5 IF the aircraft was on the official path.

He couldn't be behind the overhead sign beside lightpole 1 because there were trees blocking the view of the Pentagon facade.

Here's a video taken the same morning from the area in question (before the overhead sign) that show 3 lanes of traffic:

Which lane was he in?

If he was beyond the overhead sign, the aircraft would have flown right over his head. He doesn't describe that. He doesn't clai that is was a matter of feet in front of his car. So where was he and where did he see the aircraft pass over Route 27?

That's what needs cleared up. Until it is, I'm leaning more towards NOC or the guy is lying/exaggerating.

Bart Krohn, Charles H.
"One of the aircraft's engines somehow ricocheted out of the building and arched into the Pentagon's mall parking area between the main building and the new loading dock facility, said Charles H. Krohn, the Army's deputy chief of public affairs. Those fleeing the building heard a loud secondary explosion about 10 min. after the initial impact."

This "engine" has never been shown or identified. Krohn doesn't mention seeing the plane. He is not a witness to the flightpath.

They Saw Le Grand, La Verne

"It's a horrible feeling because you're afraid all the time. You're afraid to go out," said District
resident La Verne Le Grand, 60, who was riding in a car on Columbia Pike on the morning of Sept. 11 and
saw the plane crash into the Pentagon. Since then, she has been admitted twice to Washington Hospital
Center for treatment of severe anxiety."

The reporter added the "plane crash" statement. She doesn't specify the exact location on Columbia Pike. It stretched from well before the Navy Annex and winds down below it. There is no view of the "impact area" before the basin and then most of it runs by the bottom of the Navy Annex. The view is blocked by trees for the entire duration.


She certainly doesn't contradict NOC and it would be interesting to actually pinpoint where she was and where she saw the aircraft. At least 8 people in the immediate area (all witnesses on record in that area) place it NOC. Would she contradict them if she was in a position to view it?

Bart Leibner, Lincoln

This was one of my first posts at the CIT forum (it's a bit amateurish but the info is solid)

The video interview has been 404ed (though I believe CIT have downloaded it somewhere. He was asked by the interviewer where he was and where he saw the plane. This gif shows that he is describing NOC. No doubt.

His story has morphed over the years but nowhere does he say he saw lightpoles being "struck" as claimed by SGYDK.
He also contradicts the official altitude across the lawn as per the OCT and the physical damage to the lightpoles.As does Boger, Sepulveda (South Parking) and witnesses along Route 27 (Elgas, Mary Ann Owens).

"The aircraft went in between the second and third floors."

He also originally claimed that the aircraft struck a helicopter on the helipad (which didn't happen)

No matter. He describes NOC.

Bart M. K.

Anonymous and unconfirmed (another anonymous e mail to BBC - why the BBC if the alleged witness lives in Pentagon City??)

SGYDK M., Rick

Anonymous and unconfirmed.


Anonymous and unconfirmed. If CIT pulled these alleged witnesses out of their asses they would be laughed at. How can anonymous testimony be compared to recorded one on one interviews that CIT have carried out? It can't.

Bart Marra, David,8599,174655-4,00.html
"David Marra, 23, an information-technology specialist, had turned his BMW off an I-395 exit to the highway just west of the Pentagon when he saw an American Airlines jet swooping in, its wings wobbly, looking like it was going to slam right into the Pentagon: "It was 50 ft. off the deck when he came in. It sounded like the pilot had the throttle completely floored. The plane rolled left and then rolled right. Then he caught an edge of his wing on the ground." There is a helicopter pad right in front of the side of the Pentagon. The wing touched there, then the plane cartwheeled into the building."

This guy's exact POV has never been found. The aircraft did not "cartwheel" and the Pentagon lawn was not marked by the "wing". The I-395 lanes have no view of the Pentagon lawn.

He doesn't contradict the NOC flightpath and judging by the embellishment of his description, it's based on assumption. Until he is interviewed in detail, this is just another media quote that dishonest detractors love.

Bart Martinez, Oscar
"I saw a big jet flying close to the building coming at full speed. There was a big noise when it hit the building,'' said Oscar Martinez, who witnessed the attack."

What "building"? Martinez describes HEARING the explosion. That's it. Not a witness based on yet another ambiguous media quote.

Mason, Don

Not ONCE is this guy Mason directly quoted. It was a second hand account penned by the ASCE report.
The link above compares his alleged testimony compared to another ASCE "witness account". That of Frank Probst, who describes anything but an "SOC approach"

Bart McClain, Tom
"Lt Col (ret) Tom McClain : I saw the remains of the engines in the North parking lot of the Pentagon as well as melted aluminum and other debris left from the aircraft. "

Did not witness flight of aircraft. Again with the unidentified parts.

Bart McNair, Phil
"Crawling, McNair turned toward the E Ring. The heat grew even fiercer, and as he neared the door to the corridor he saw bright orange through the crack along its bottom. He reversed course, yelling, ``We've got to get out the other way.''
Inside the Pentagon. Did not witness flight of aircraft.

Bart Mitchell, Terry
"This is a hole in -- there was a punch-out. They suspect that this was where a part of the aircraft came through this hole, although I didn't see any evidence of the aircraft down there. (...) This pile here is all Pentagon metal. None of that is aircraft whatsoever. As you can see, they've punched a hole in here. This was punched by the rescue workers to clean it out. You can see this is the -- some of the unrenovated areas where the windows have blown out. "

Wasn't there. Not a witness.
" I didn't see any evidence of the aircraft down there"
Last Edit: 29 Oct 2011 23:54 by stefanlebkon.
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Aw: Onesliceshort Analyse:Augenzeugen und der Nordpfad 29 Oct 2011 23:57 #2225

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SGYDK Mitchell, Mitch

]They Saw Mondul, Steve
"Steve Mondul, a special Assistant to the Transportation Commissioner reports that the plane came directly overhead the DOT's Smart Traffic Center, an inconspicuous two-story brick building up a hill from the Pentagon."

This alleged second hand testimony is based on the confusing account of Madelyn Zachem:

Mondul did not see the aircraft.

Bart Moody, Sheila
"Sheila Moody, in Room 472, heard a whoosh and a whistle and she wondered where all this air was coming from. Then a blast of fire that left as fast as it came. She looked down and saw her hands aflame, so she shook them. "

Inside the Pentagon. Not a witness to the aircraft.

Bart Mosley, James

James Mosley, four stories up on a scaffold at the Navy Annex, "... I looked over and saw this big silver
plane run into the side of the Pentagon"

The FULL unconfirmed media quote includes the line:
¨"The building started shaking, and I looked over..¨

He is also mentioned in another media report:
"James Mosley, 57, was four stories up on a scaffold, washing the windows of the Navy Annex building when the plane flew overhead."

Source - UCLA Anderson School of Management

The aircraft cannot deviate from its directional damage path/FDR path from before the Navy Annex

If I were as dishonest as the detractors' methods I could just as easily say that James Mosley is an "NOC witness" based on this two-liner from the media. But I wouldn't. What needs to be asked is why a witness allegedly on top of a scaffold at the Navy Annex with a panoramic view wasn't followed up on by the media?

He certainly doesn't contradict the NOC flightpath if the "over the navy annex" description, which is corroborated not only by many of the confirmed NOC witnesses but from an array of other quotes here:

Bart Murphy, Peter M.
"He passed this information to Hogue, who stepped back into the doorway of Mr. Murphy's office to relay the message. At that instant, a tremendous explosion with what Mr. Murphy said was a noise "louder than any noise he had ever heard" shook the room. Mr. Murphy, who had been standing with his back to the window, was knocked entirely across the room, while Hogue was jolted into his office."

Inside Pentagon. Is not a witness to the aircraft.

They Saw Murray, Patty (Senator)

I had to SCOUR the internet for this alleged "witness".

Sen. Patty Murray (D, Washington) was in a meeting with other Senate leaders.
"From a window in the meeting room, she saw a plane hit the Pentagon."

First, she was in Washington. There is no view of the west face of the Pentagon. Had she even got a view of the Pentagon itself?? The Pentagon basin?
Secondly, this is a second hand account.."she saw a plane.."

She was allegedly in The Capitol Building FOUR-FIVE kilometres away.

No dice. Ridiculous.

Bart Narayanan, Vin

Naranyan is discussed in the thread ("Nobody contradicts NOC")

SGYDK Navy Admiral, unnamed


SGYDK NBC, News interview

That must be Steven Gerard, already discussed above.

Response Neri, Michael

Excerpts from an interview with Captain Michael J. Neri, Jr., who was Special Assistant to the Assistant Surgeon General for Force Protection.
"Colonel Fruendt, our secretary Doreen, and myself were in there. I looked at Colonel Fruendt and said, “I’m surprised we haven’t heard an announcement about increased levels of THREATCON here at the Pentagon.

Did not see aircraft. Was inside the building.

Nguyen, Duong


These people aren't witnesses to the aircraft. He was inside the building.

SGYDK Pak, Zinovy

Russian Munitions Agency director was on his way to the Pentagon for negotiations over U.S. funding for
a southern Urals chemical weapons destruction facility.
"saw a plane crash into the building."

That´s it. Another unconfirmed one-liner. Second hand? Whereabouts was he?
I-395? Route 110? On the lawn? In Lloyd´s cab? Where?
Did HE even say those words or a journalist?

Bart Patterson, Steve
Steve Patterson, who lives in Pentagon City,..a commuter jet swooped over Arlington National Cemetery and headed for the Pentagon...The plane was about 150 yards away, approaching from the west about 20 feet off the ground, Patterson said.

He said the plane, which sounded like the high-pitched squeal of a fighter jet, flew over Arlington cemetary so low that he thought it was going to land on I-395. He said it was flying so fast that he couldn't read any writing on the side. The plane, which appeared to hold about eight to 12 people,

Another second hand truncated account from somebody that CIT can't find to interview. His alleged testimony is bizarre.

"flew over Arlington Cemetery" which is NOC. Thing is, this guy also describes a commuter jet flying "20 feet agl...150 yards from his apartment in Pentagon City. Many of the "small plane" witnesses were either viewing from a distance or were misquoted by the media (Campos), so what's this guy's excuse if it allegedly flew close by (depending on how you take the testimony!)?

I've placed his alleged POV at the building closest to I-395

The NOC witnesses within the Pentagon basin describe the aircraft as traelling close to Arlington Cemetery:

Many are beyond the bullshit argument that it was an issue of perspective. particularly Boger and Middleton. Boger, because he had a full on view of the approach and at no time does the alleged "SOC path" cross his line of sight. Middleton couldn't physically SEE the "SOC approach" ( and his line of sight towards the ANC complex where he claims to have seen the plane fly over, completely contradicts the official path.

Patterson's second hand account then continues..

"Then, he said, he saw the Pentagon "envelope" the plane and bright orange flames shoot out the back of the building."

The "back"?

An interesting story about this alleged witness.

It was originally posted at 5pm on September 11th by the Washington Post by Barbara Vobejda. On asking her for contact details:

"Joel Skousen of ´World Affairs Brief´ reported that: "I have, so far, been unable to locate a Steven Patterson in the Pentagon City area of Arlington, Va. None of the graphic design firms in the area that I called have heard of him.
Barbara Vobejda told me she didn't have a contact number for him
and that his testimony was received by "one of the dozens of "stringers" they had out in the field that day interviewing people on the ground."

Link to Joel Skousen´s page:

Bart Perkal, Don
"My colleagues felt the impact, which reminded them of an earthquake. People shouted in the corridor outside that a bomb had gone off upstairs on the main concourse in the building. No alarms sounded. I walked to my office, shut down my computer, and headed out. Even before stepping outside I could smell the cordite. Then I knew explosives had been set off somewhere. I looked to my right and saw a raging fire and smoke careening off the facade to the sky. (...) Two explosions, a few minutes apart, prompted me to start walking. "
He was inside the building. Not a witness.
Interestingly he is a "cordite" and "bomb" witness.

SGYDK Perry, Scott

Scott Perry of Spotsylvania County heard a plane's engines rumbling above the Navy Annex building where
he works, so he looked out his window, which faces the Pentagon.
"[The plane] was coming straight into the wedge," Perry said. "I saw it crash. There was about five
seconds of disbelief, and the next thing I heard was, down the hallway, a friend of mine screaming."
Another "over the Annex" audio witness.

Albert Hemphill claims to have been in an office at the Navy Annex facing the Pentagon:

He is also adamant that he saw an "impact" but he was just as adamant that the aircraft "flew right over the top"of the Navy Annex. He was also adamant that the aircraft flew "closer to Arlington Cemetery". Even when Jeffrey Hill sabotaged CIT's contact with this person, he STILL insisted that the aircraft flew "over the top" of Citgo.

Hill and his friends claimed that it was a "perspective issue" but this is impossible when looked at from an aeriel perspective:

At what point would the aircraft have appeared to have been over the Citgo gas station along the official path?

He corroborates Boger who was sitting opposite his POV in the heliport.

Perry's claim that the aircraft went over the Annex certainly doesn't contradict NOC but a more detailed interview would be interesting.
Last Edit: 30 Oct 2011 01:08 by stefanlebkon.
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Aw: Onesliceshort Analyse:Augenzeugen und der Nordpfad 30 Oct 2011 00:11 #2226

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NBC Petitt, Mark

nbc interview:
I was actually sitting in traffic on route 110 on my way to work ..and it was an AA plane that came in
and hit the Pentagon..I saw the plane actually come up the I-395..and it went over the horizon and then
just came back in front of a bridge where I was sitting and I KNEW IT WAS GOING TO HIT..AND THE NEXT
THING THERE WAS A HUGE EXPLOSION black smoke everywhere..

Here is Route 110 which runs BEHIND the Pentagon:,-77.0513...005664,0.013711&z=16

Here are the only two bridges on Route 110 within which the Navy Annex and route 27 may be seen at a
distance. The North face of the Pentagon is in the foreground. The South face and most of South Parking
is out of view until the driver is beyond the mound on the left. Remember the Streetview Cam is 1 metre
above the car roof.

He did not witness any "impact". He could not physically see the Pentagon basin.

From his alleged perspective he may have ASSUMED that the plane flew over the I-395 even though the
Official Route does NOT show this. He may have seen the plane as it flew over the Annex.
What IS strange is that he says ´it went over the horizon and then just came back´. It went out of his
view? How so if the plane followed the Official Path? It was allegedly following a straight line from
before and after lightpole 1.

Here is a bird´s eye view of this tram of road from the road which goes over the first bridge:,12.27,,1,2.8

Here's the aeriel view of the same area from January 2001:

The mound was there. And so were a few trees lining the road.

The fact that he said he saw the plane in the area of the I-395, that it went out of view and then CAME BACK IN is irreconcilable with the official path. His view of the plane when it had passed the Navy Annex HAD to have been blocked by the building.
It was IMPOSSIBLE for him to see the final seconds from his position.

Bart Pfeilstucker, Daniel C. Jr
"Daniel C. Pfeilstucker Jr., caught in the flying debris, didn't know if he was going to make it out alive. The Pentagon was on fire."

Inside the building. Not a witness to the aircraft.
Interestingly, it's claimed that he was "40 feet from the point of impact" on the second floor.

Response Powell, Reginald
"Sergeant Reginald Powell, a radiologist at the DiLorenzo Tricare Health Clinic, will say: “I was in awe that I saw no plane, nothing left from the plane. It was like it disintegrated as it went into the building.” [OFFICE OF MEDICAL HISTORY, 9/2004, PP. 119]

Not a witness to the aircraft. In fact he is listed among witnesses who queried the LACK of debris.

Bart Ragland, Clyde
"Naval officer Clyde Ragland, who works near the Pentagon, was stuck in his office because the streets outside were clogged with traffic. He and his co-workers were watching television reports of the disaster in New York when "we gazed out our own windows and, to our horror and disbelief, saw huge billows of black smoke rising from the northeast, in the direction of D.C. and the river . . . and the Pentagon."

Not a witness to the aircraft.

Bart Renzi, Rick;

Political “watchdog” groups claim he ranks as one of the most corrupt congressmen. In 2004, the Federal Election Commission (“FEC”) concluded an audit of Rep. Renzi’s campaign committee, Rick Renzi for Congress (“RRFC”), and found that the committee had illegally
financed much of the Congressman’s 2002 election campaign. The FEC found that, based on the documentation submitted by RRFC, $369,090 of the loans were made using impermissible corporate funds.

In 2003, Rep. Renzi sponsored legislation (signed into law in November 2003) that dealt hundreds of millions of dollars to his father’s business while, according to environmentalists, devastating the San Pedro River.

Renzi has called for deployment of military technology all along the nearly 2000 mile southern border of Arizona … The total cost for monitoring the whole border: $500 million.

Also, he has been a recipient of political contributions from Abramoff, and the tribes that hired him. All within one term.

His father gained multi ILLION dollar contracts through the middle east wars that emanated from 9/11


Bart Robbins, James S

Senior Fellow in National Security Affairs at the American Foreign Policy Council and an NRO contributor.

James S Robbins a national-security analyst & 'nationalreviewonline' contributor: "I was standing,
looking out my large office window, which faces west and from six stories up has a commanding view of
the Potomac and the Virginia heights." "The Pentagon is about a mile and half distant in the center of
the tableau. I was looking directly at it when the aircraft struck. The sight of the 757 diving in at an
unrecoverable angle is frozen in my memory, but at the time. " I did not immediately comprehend what I
was witnessing. There was a silvery flash, an explosion, and a dark, mushroom shaped cloud rose over the
building. I froze, gaping for a second until the sound of the detonation, a sharp pop at that distance,
shook me out of it. "

Another government linked 2km ´window witness´
He says he was SIX floors up when he saw the plane in ´an unrecoverable angle´. Hardly backs the official
story of straight descent into a low and level trajectory does it?
Maybe he was describing the right bank so many people described?
He could only possibly seen the plane as it flew over the Navy Annex.
If the official story is to be believed it took 3 seconds to reach lightpole 1. So...1-2 seconds in his
He was viewing from the back of the Pentagon, across the river in Washington. He had NO VIEW of the
point of the explosion. He saw a ´silvery light´ and smoke.

Here is the POV of another witness in Washington, Scott Cook, around the same area as this guy but from
MUCH higher (12 stories):

What could Robbins have possibly seen from a much lower POV?

In fact we KNOW he saw nothing just by mentioning the ´unrecoverable angle´ just like Rick Renzi. How
can they be called ´reliable witnesses´ when they majorly messed up on what they allegedly saw??
Incredible luck all these witnesses who happened to be miles away looking out their windows at obscure
points in the distance to catch the plane´s approach for the seconds that it MAY have been visible.
Anything after that is pure deduction and speculation garnered from news reports afterwards.
Seeing smoke rise from the Pentagon does NOT make you an ´impact witness´
If he continued, like the others to be referred to as such , that means the official flightpath and
altitude were a lie.
Even the NOC testimony has the plane at treetop level in a bank.
They CANNOT be honestly used on a par with witnesses who were in FRONT OF AND ON THE GROUNDS OF THE BUILDING AND CORRABORATE.

A biased ALLEGED witness with an obscure view who contradicts the Pentagon gatecam:
Last Edit: 30 Oct 2011 20:59 by stefanlebkon.
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