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TOPIC: Pentagon: Flugzeug-Trümmerteile

Aw: Pentagon: Flugzeug-Trümmerteile 24 Sep 2010 22:18 #993

  • paco
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stefanlebkon schrieb:
Wie wär´s. wenn Du einfach den Link zum Politikforum lieferst?
Tut mir leid, das war irgendwo in den beiden Monsterthreads, das herauszusuchen ist mir zu aufwendig.
Wenn ich dich verwechsle und du damals nicht beteiligt warst, kann ich das hier bei Interesse gern nochmals darlegen.

paco
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Aw: Re: Pentagon: Flugzeug-Trümmerteile 25 Sep 2010 15:01 #995

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@ Red Dwarf

Red Dwarf schrieb:
HerrKoenig schrieb:

Es gibt auch Fotos die direkt an 9/11 geschossen wurden, welche zum Beispiel Fetzen der Außenhaut des Flugzeugs auf der Wiese zeigen.

...und es gibt ebenso am 11.09. aufgenommene Bilder, die einen bemerkenswert unversehrten Rasen mit ohne sichtbare Trümmer
aufweisen:

---> killtown.911review.org/pentalawn.html


RD[/quote]

Man muß dabei bedenken, daß das FBI noch am selben Tag begonnen hatte die Flugzeugtrümmer vom Rasen aufzusammeln:
9/11 Timeline:

(12:00 p.m.) September 11, 2001 and After: FBI Searches Pentagon Surroundings for Plane Debris


Personnel from several agencies searching for evidence at the Pentagon.
[Source: Federal Bureau of Investigation]

Beginning shortly before midday on September 11, 2001, and continuing until September 12, the FBI conducts a careful search across the grounds of the Pentagon, looking for remnants of the aircraft that hit the building. [PBS, 9/12/2001; Washington Post, 9/12/2001; Goldberg et al., 2007, pp. 159] FBI Special Agent Tom O’Connor is in charge of the initial evidence recovery operation at the Pentagon. His first priority is to locate and gather all the airplane parts and other pieces of evidence from the lawn on the west side of the building. He sends out all available agents to conduct a grid search. The lawn is divided into quadrants, and then agents walk back and forth, sticking a small flag near any evidence they find, getting the evidence photographed in its place, and then scooping it into a bag. [Creed and Newman, 2008, pp. 180] Arlington police officers, military personnel, and others also participate in the search. [Goldberg et al., 2007, pp. 159] They also look for evidence across grass and roadways several hundred yards from the Pentagon. [PBS, 9/12/2001] Some pieces of the aircraft that hit the Pentagon are found nearly 1,000 feet away from the building, on the other side of Washington Boulevard. Thousands of tiny pieces of aluminum have also carried forward over the Pentagon, into its center courtyard. Other pieces of debris landed on its roof, along with body parts from at least one victim. [Creed and Newman, 2008, pp. 29] According to the Defense Department’s book about the Pentagon attack, the searchers find “many scraps and a few personal items widely scattered on the grass and heliport. Plane remnants varied from half-dollar size to a few feet long.” [Goldberg et al., 2007, pp. 159] Authors Patrick Creed and Rick Newman will describe: “Agents found what looked like a big Plexiglas windowpane on the lawn, which might have been part of an airplane window, except it was too big.… Somebody suggested it could be one of the blast-proof windows from the Pentagon, somehow blown 500 feet from the building.” [Creed and Newman, 2008, pp. 180]
Quelle

EDIT:
Im Hintergrund dieses Fotos sieht man deutlich mit Schrotteilen "zugemüllten" Rasen, die Feuerwehr bei Löscharbeiten und den noch nicht eingestürzten Pentagon-Abschnitt über dem Einschlagsloch:

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/1858/pentaplanedebris14.jpg
Das Foto wurde vor 10.15 Uhr aufgenommen. Das Flugzeug schlug um ca. 9.37 Uhr ins Pentagon ein.
Last Edit: 25 Sep 2010 18:09 by HerrKoenig.
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Aw: Pentagon: Flugzeug-Trümmerteile 25 Sep 2010 16:33 #996

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stefanlebkon schrieb:
Du meinst die Trümmer auf dem Rasen, bei denen die Nieten sauber enfernt wurden?

z3.invisionfree.com/CIT/index.php?showto...w=findpost&p=1536725

Hm, du weißt also genau, daß bei einem Flugzeugcrash und Explosion die Nietenlöcher unbedingt franzig und ausgerissen aussehen müssen? Basiert das auf irgendeine ermittlungstechnische Erfahrung oder einfach nur auf Dahergerede bzw. kritikloses Kopieren vom CIT?
Vielleicht sind die Nietenköpfe aus den Löchern ausgebrochen oder die Nieten brachen selbst entzwei?

Sag CIT lieber, sie sollen endlich Zeugen für ihren Flyover-Humbug präsentieren, vorausgesetzt es sind wirklich Zeugen, und nicht Aldo mit Schnauzbart oder Craig mit Blondinen-Perücke.

Stefanlebkon schrieb:
Oder die Trümmer, die von diesen unbekannten Herren platziert,ähh.... verlegt wurden?

mouv4x8.perso.neuf.fr/11Sept01/A0064b_de...hommes%20table3a.jpg
Und der Gedanke, daß diese Männer vielleicht vom FBI sind und die Trümmer vielleicht aufsammeln und nicht platzieren, ist dir nicht in den Sinn gekommen?
Irgendwelche Beweise oder Indizien für diese Andeutung? Oder wieder nur Dahergerede?
Außerdem, Trümmer platzieren am hellichten Tag vor den Augen von dutzenden, wenn nicht hunderten von Augenzeugen, darunter auch welche von der Presse...wenn das nicht besonders auffällig ist, dann weiß ich auch nicht...
Müsste da nicht erst ein großer Laster mit Flugzeugschrott ankommen und Leute diesen entladen, um dann vor den Augen von Zuschauern diese deponieren? Es ist mir auch völlig schleierhaft, wie man all diese Teile in Rucksack packen kann und diese dann beim Vorbeigehen wie eine Zigarettenkippe unbemerkt auf die Wiese fallen zulassen. Bei manchen abgebildeten Trümmern würde man dafür wahrscheinlich auch einen Gabelstapler oder Hubwagen benötigen!

Stefanlebkon schrieb:
Oder die Trümmer, die unmittelbar nach dem Crash nicht zu sehen, sich aber 30 Minuten später, um 10.06 aus dem Nichts materialisiert haben?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6GH8jNcpvo

Alle Bilder die hier gezeigt werden, wurden höchstwahrscheinlich vor Beginn der Aufsammlungsaktion des FBI geschossen. Zum Beispiel, Sanitäter welche noch Rettungsmaßnahmen machen und Rumsfeld läuft auf der Wiese herum.
Das untere Foto zeigt die Agenten beim Aufsammeln und im Hintergrund das besagte ("mysteriöse") Stück Außenhaut, welches auf den vorigen Fotos noch nicht zusehen war. Daneben noch weitere große Trümmer, groß genug, um nicht in die kleinen Tüten der Agenten zu passen. Was darauf hindeutet, daß diese Teile beim Aufsammeln beiseite gelegt wurden.

PS: Um 10.06 Uhr sind die Trümmer aufgetaucht? Woher hast du diese Zeitangabe her?
Aus der Videobeschreibung auf Youtube:
This video shows that the "C" near the north end of the firestation was not there at 10:06 when both ABC and CBS showed rescue operations.
Hier wird geschrieben, daß das Teil mit dem "C" um 10.06 Uhr noch nicht am Heliport-Tower gesichtet wurde, als die Sender ABC und CBS die Rettungsmaßnahmen gefilmt haben, und nicht daß es um 10.06 Uhr auf einmal aufgetaucht ist!
Verlesen?


Warum zeigt der Autor dieses Videos nicht dieses Bild mit den FBI-Agenten?

http://a.imageshack.us/img442/83/fbipentadebris.jpg
Dem Schatten nach, ich würde schätzen es ist Spätnachmittag.

Leider aber gibt es Leute, welche aus Fahrlässigkeit, Dummheit oder Sensationsgier Videos erstellen und sie zum Beispiel auf Youtube veröffenlichen, ohne über den Inhalt mal kritisch nachzudenken.

PS:
Stefanlebkon, weniger Copy&Paste und stattdessen mehr Eigenrecherche würde dir gut tun. ;)
Last Edit: 25 Sep 2010 17:43 by HerrKoenig.
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Aw: Pentagon: Flugzeug-Trümmerteile 25 Sep 2010 20:30 #997

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"Sag CIT lieber, sie sollen endlich Zeugen für ihren Flyover-Humbug präsentieren, vorausgesetzt es sind wirklich Zeugen, und nicht Aldo mit Schnauzbart oder Craig mit Blondinen-Perücke."

Das ist kein Argument.

"Stefanlebkon, weniger Copy&Paste und stattdessen mehr Eigenrecherche würde dir gut tun."

Da Du 80% meinenr Posts nicht liest, brauche ich dieKritik nicht ernstzunehmen.


"Warum zeigt der Autor dieses Videos nicht dieses Bild mit den FBI-Agenten?"

Die Begründung lieferst Du doch selbst:



"Dem Schatten nach, ich würde schätzen es ist Spätnachmittag."

also nicht vormittag.


"Und der Gedanke, daß diese Männer vielleicht vom FBI sind und die Trümmer vielleicht aufsammeln und nicht platzieren, ist dir nicht in den Sinn gekommen?"


"... vielleicht... aufsammeln..."Q

1. Tragen sie irgendwelche FBI- Anzüge?
2. Aufsammeln mit BLO?EN Händen? Ohne Handschuhe?



"Hier wird geschrieben, daß das Teil mit dem "C" um 10.06 Uhr noch nicht am Heliport-Tower gesichtet wurde, als die Sender ABC und CBS die Rettungsmaßnahmen gefilmt haben, und nicht daß es um 10.06 Uhr auf einmal aufgetaucht ist!"

Wo befand sich das Teil mit dem C URSPRÜNGLICH?

"Außerdem, Trümmer platzieren am hellichten Tag vor den Augen von dutzenden, wenn nicht hunderten von Augenzeugen, darunter auch welche von der Presse...wenn das nicht besonders auffällig ist, dann weiß ich auch nicht..."


1. Die Straße unmittebar neben der Einschlagszone wurde schnell abgeriegelt. siehe Ingersoll- Bilder

thepentacon.com/Topic7.htm
2. Durfte die Presse überhaupt so nah dran? Die Straße, die an der Einschlagsstelle vorbeiführt, liegt auf einem Hügelkamm
3. Es WURDEN auffällige Personen beobachtet.

everal entries in the Complete 9/11 Timeline (copied below) describe what appear to have been individuals disguised as firefighters or military personnel, who were involved in the rescue and recovery efforts at the Pentagon following the attack there on September 11, 2001. What these individuals were doing is unknown, but possibilities need to be investigated, such as whether they were there to tamper with, plant, or remove evidence. That this may have been the case is given weight by the fact that some people who appeared to be members of the military were witnessed stealing crash debris from in front of the Pentagon.

Fairly early on in the firefighting operation at the Pentagon, what appeared to be a crew of firefighters was seen behaving completely at odds with how firefighters are trained to act. An Arlington County firefighter working on the building's second floor witnessed the crew walking past burning fires, apparently to get to fires elsewhere in the building. But, as authors Patrick Creed and Rick Newman have pointed out: "Firefighters are trained never to go through a fire without putting it out, since it might seal off your exit. You might as well walk into a burning room and lock the door behind you."

Then, on September 12, the Defense Protective Service (DPS), which guards the Pentagon, arrested three people at the Pentagon who were dressed as firefighters, but were not firefighters.

Beginning that same day, a couple of firefighters involved in the recovery effort were repeatedly assisted by a mysterious man who appeared to work for the military, but who wore no identifying badge and was known to them only as "Johnny." This man said if the firefighters needed anything from the military, he could help them, and even introduced them to some friends of his who said they worked for Special Forces. But on the evening of September 14, Johnny suddenly disappeared. When the two firefighters asked around, they found that no one at the Pentagon knew who "Johnny" was, and none of the agencies involved in the recovery effort said he worked for them. The two firefighters started to wonder if he'd been an imposter who'd perhaps managed to gain access to the site before security had been tightened there.

The presence of these fake personnel raises the question of why they were at the Pentagon. Were these men just "thrill seekers," as the chief of the DPS has claimed, there for their own misguided reasons? Or could they have been at the site for a more sinister purpose, perhaps as part of a coordinated operation to plant or remove evidence from the crime scene?

This latter possibility has some evidence to support it. Shortly after the attack occurred, DPS officer Lt. Robbie Turner saw people apparently stealing plane debris from the road in front of the Pentagon. Turner has recalled, "We had to try to stop other people from pilfering the wreckage because, believe it or not, there were people--military personnel involved--you know, included, rather, that was picking up the wreckage of the plane from off the highway." Another DPS officer, Roosevelt Roberts Jr., worked during the afternoon and evening of 9/11 at the heliport near where the Pentagon was hit. He has recalled that, in that time, "We had a lot of people vandalizing, stealing evidence."

FAKE FIREFIGHTERS

(Between 11:00 a.m. and 12:00 p.m.) September 11, 2001: Mystery Firefighters Seen Behaving Oddly inside Pentagon
A mysterious fire crew is witnessed inside the Pentagon, behaving completely at odds with how firefighters are trained to act. [Creed and Newman, 2008, pp. 137] Chad Stamps is a firefighter with Rescue 104 of the Arlington County Fire Department. [National Fire and Rescue, 5/2002] Along with his crew, he has been fighting fires on the second floor of the Pentagon's outer E Ring. With fires burning around him, he is astonished to see another crew walk past, carrying two packs of hose line, apparently on its way to fight fires elsewhere in the Pentagon. Describing this incident, authors Patrick Creed and Rick Newman will point out: "Firefighters are trained never to go through a fire without putting it out, since it might seal off your exit. You might as well walk into a burning room and lock the door behind you. Yet there they went." Seeing the crew passing by, Stamps thinks, "This is totally disjointed." [Creed and Newman, 2008, pp. 137] The odd behavior of this crew is perhaps notable because there is at least one reported incident of fake firefighters being caught at the Pentagon following the attack there: On September 12, three people will be arrested who are not firefighters, yet who are dressed in firefighting gear (see September 12, 2001). [Goldberg et al., 2007, pp. 170]
Source

September 12, 2001: People Disguised as Firefighters Arrested at Pentagon
The Defense Protective Service (DPS)--the law enforcement agency that guards the Pentagon--arrests three people at the Pentagon who are dressed in firefighting gear but are not firefighters. Further details of who these people are and why they are at the Pentagon are unstated. John Jester, the chief of the DPS, later reflects: "When you have a major event, certain people are like moths around a light bulb. They come to the scene as thrill seekers." Reportedly, incident command, DPS, and FBI officials are worried by the "absence of an effective identification system to control the large number of people that [are passing] through the outer perimeter fence to support firefighting and recovery operations" at the Pentagon. [Goldberg et al., 2007, pp. 170]
Source

MILITARY IMPOSTER

September 12-14, 2001: Apparently Fake Military Official Helps with Pentagon Recovery, then Disappears
A mysterious man, who is initially assumed to be working for the military, assists firefighters involved in the Pentagon recovery efforts, but then disappears without trace and is thought to have been an impostor who had managed to slip inside the Pentagon grounds.
"Johnny" - Arlington firefighter Bob Gray is introduced by his colleague Bobby Beer to a man wearing a hard hat. Beer introduces the man only as "Johnny," and adds, "He's our go-between with PenRen [the Pentagon Renovation Program], and he knows some of the military guys too." Although "Johnny" is not wearing any identifying badge or ID, he seems knowledgeable, appears "taut and serious, with a purposeful military stance," and even introduces Gray and Beer to a couple of friends of his who say they work for Special Forces. Johnny says if Gray and Beer need anything from the military, he can help. As a security perimeter has now been set up around the crash site, Gray assumes Johnny must be there officially. [Creed and Newman, 2008, pp. 367-368]
Disappears - Johnny turns out to be very helpful and assists Gray and Beer repeatedly. But, on the evening of September 14, he suddenly disappears. Gray and Beer ask around, but no one at the Pentagon seems to know exactly who Johnny is or what his last name is, and none of the agencies involved in the recovery effort say he worked for them. Johnny's disappearance appears to follow an error he had made after firefighters discovered two bodies inside the Pentagon's E Ring. Johnny mistakenly called the truck used to remove bodies to the temporary morgue prematurely, before FBI agents had the chance to photograph and document the remains. Gray and Beer start to wonder if Johnny in fact had no official standing, and was an impostor.
Clearance - According to authors Patrick Creed and Rick Newman, "It wasn't unusual at high-profile crime scenes for law-enforcement pretenders to show up and insinuate themselves into the work." Johnny would have required "some kind of clearance to get through the concentric security perimeters that sprung up around the building--unless he'd been inside the wire before security tightened. It was possible that he had wandered in at the very beginning and simply stayed--there was enough food, water, and basic support on the scene to survive for days. Somebody who was determined enough to sleep inside one of the tents, or even on the grass, could easily have bypassed security."
Tighter Security - However, the FBI has now become stricter about security, and is ushering out volunteers and scrutinizing anyone without airtight credentials. Gray and Beer conclude that Johnny may have come to the attention of the FBI when he called the body truck, leading agents to inquire who he was, and this could have prompted his disappearance from the Pentagon. [Creed and Newman, 2008, pp. 416-418]
Source

STEALING EVIDENCE

(After 10:15 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Police See People, Including Military Personnel, Stealing Debris from Pentagon Crash Site
Two Pentagon police officers see people--some of them members of the military--stealing crash debris from in front of the Pentagon. After the Pentagon was hit, Lt. Robbie Turner had been helping the injured at a triage area. When, at around 10:15 a.m., reports are received of a possible second plane heading for the Pentagon (see (10:15 a.m.-10:38 a.m.) September 11, 2001), he sets about evacuating people away from there. As this is going on, he later recalls: "[W]e had to try to collect up evidence, as much of the evidence as we possibly could. Take pictures of it or whatever." However, some people are apparently trying to steal plane debris from the road in front of the Pentagon. According to Turner, "[W]e had to try to stop other people from pilfering the wreckage because, believe it or not, there were people--military personnel involved--you know, included, rather, that was picking up the wreckage of the plane from off the highway as we were running away." [Library of Congress, 12/3/2001] Later on in the day, around 3:00 p.m., another Pentagon police officer, Roosevelt Roberts Jr., is called to the heliport near where the Pentagon was hit, and remains there for the next 13 hours. He will recall that, during this time, "we had a lot of people vandalizing, stealing evidence." He does not specify who these people are, or what this "evidence" is that is being stolen and vandalized. [Library of Congress, 11/30/2001]

shoestring911.blogspot.com/2008/10/fake-...rs-and-military.html
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Aw: Pentagon: Flugzeug-Trümmerteile 25 Sep 2010 21:11 #1002

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